Travels with Rick Steves was one of the few programs I listened to on NPR. This past show featured an island chain off the coast of India where one of the last indigenous people live, completely unspoiled and unstudied by science. Any outsiders trying to make contact are driven away by spears or bow and if too persistent killed. Their technology is stone age and the length of their society likely dates that far back. Some of the other islands in the chain have similar inhabitants but have been intruded upon by western civilization. And now they are becoming a tourist attraction for westerners to see and experience the naked savages on the island. Rick Steves excitedly grabbed hold of this and started promoting it. That's the last time I'll listen to his show.
The point is that there have been societies which have lasted for thousands of years living with nature in harmony and happily. The !Kung and the builders of Stonehenge as well as indigenous Americans. It makes it difficult to say if humans are a rogue species. It may be that homo sapiens branched off into 2 separate species, one warlike and the other not. Or a result of interbreeding with neanderthals. I've always viewed war as nature's way of maintaining a population within the limits of the natural resources available, as a last resort I should add. Famine and desease are two other methods both of which have been overcome: a major contributing factor for overpopulation today.
Compounding the difficulty of answering the question is the definition of intelligence. Intelligence is not clearly or adequately defined even within our species. Other species intelligence are completely undefined and unknown. Cetaceans clearly have a language which is incomprehensible to humans. Yet orcas and dolphins can learn to understand our language at least well enough to do tricks for us. Dogs,pigs and cats fall into the same category amongst other species. And it's a certainty that intelligence varies within species the same as humans. Cetaceans and primates have clearly defined social structure which we only understand in a limited way. We are searching for ETs and yet can't communicate with other species on our own planet.
H.s.s fault may be arrogance in belief that we are superior because of our technology. The same technology that is destroying the planet. This is not intelligent. Arrogance coupled with stupidity.
For some reason I never quite made the connection between religion and the media of today as a means of control and propaganda. Religion uses threats of hell whereas today trinkets are used as coercion. Both give acceptable results. Humans excel at ignoring contradictory beliefs.
If (when) the present system collapses, there will be very few people capable of surviving. Our present system is one of which humans are dependent on for life, not just comfort and convenience. The ones who think they are independent from society are in for a rude awakening. Civilized society has become completely removed from the natural environment and lives in an illusion of comfort and security by technology. Nature was the binding force of a reality which held society and humans together. Now that binding reality has been broken, society and civilization are fractured and falling apart. The anxiety of the masses being reported are the direct result of the technology that is keeping us "safe". Technology should be viewed as a mental illness on society. It's an addiction like opium. A dependence which makes us feel good for a while but is ultimately destructive.
Maybe if science could accept the fact that free will and deterministic behavior can exist simultaneously in human behavior they'd have their answer. Human behavior is not Newtonian physics. Newtonian physics is not human behavior. Humans have the free will to make choices and the choices determine the outcome of their actions. Presently the choices we as a society are making (and have made) are very deterministic in the outcome, and they are the wrong choices.
Hi Kathleen, finally got a chance to read the article you shared, thank you. I found it interesting and worthy of pondering, but perhaps I had no choice but to feel this way, lol. No doubt genetics and conditioning determine much of our behavior, but occasionally there seem to be dramatic exceptions, for instance those who were hardened KKK disciples renouncing those beliefs. Sapolsky's ideas are certainly worth consideration, if difficult to prove or disprove. I'm all for the study of human behavior, truly that is key to our future. Can our intellect overcome our primitive animal?
Many good points here. We have a profound behavioral issue, and the problem of overpopulation spoken of when I was in grade school is never discussed. Overconsumption to avoid boredom is indeed another key problem which I chalk up to a failure of education to create intellectual curiosity, and our increasingly fragmented societies which no longer revolve around community.
Kathleen, let me summarize the main problems in a few words and their solutions: Globalization and Centralization. We need to go from that to: Localization and Decentralization.
Exactly on point! Totally agree Kathleen!! There must be limits to this "progress", because the only progress we are making is ruining the planet. That's not called progress, it's called "destruction".
Travels with Rick Steves was one of the few programs I listened to on NPR. This past show featured an island chain off the coast of India where one of the last indigenous people live, completely unspoiled and unstudied by science. Any outsiders trying to make contact are driven away by spears or bow and if too persistent killed. Their technology is stone age and the length of their society likely dates that far back. Some of the other islands in the chain have similar inhabitants but have been intruded upon by western civilization. And now they are becoming a tourist attraction for westerners to see and experience the naked savages on the island. Rick Steves excitedly grabbed hold of this and started promoting it. That's the last time I'll listen to his show.
The point is that there have been societies which have lasted for thousands of years living with nature in harmony and happily. The !Kung and the builders of Stonehenge as well as indigenous Americans. It makes it difficult to say if humans are a rogue species. It may be that homo sapiens branched off into 2 separate species, one warlike and the other not. Or a result of interbreeding with neanderthals. I've always viewed war as nature's way of maintaining a population within the limits of the natural resources available, as a last resort I should add. Famine and desease are two other methods both of which have been overcome: a major contributing factor for overpopulation today.
Compounding the difficulty of answering the question is the definition of intelligence. Intelligence is not clearly or adequately defined even within our species. Other species intelligence are completely undefined and unknown. Cetaceans clearly have a language which is incomprehensible to humans. Yet orcas and dolphins can learn to understand our language at least well enough to do tricks for us. Dogs,pigs and cats fall into the same category amongst other species. And it's a certainty that intelligence varies within species the same as humans. Cetaceans and primates have clearly defined social structure which we only understand in a limited way. We are searching for ETs and yet can't communicate with other species on our own planet.
H.s.s fault may be arrogance in belief that we are superior because of our technology. The same technology that is destroying the planet. This is not intelligent. Arrogance coupled with stupidity.
For some reason I never quite made the connection between religion and the media of today as a means of control and propaganda. Religion uses threats of hell whereas today trinkets are used as coercion. Both give acceptable results. Humans excel at ignoring contradictory beliefs.
If (when) the present system collapses, there will be very few people capable of surviving. Our present system is one of which humans are dependent on for life, not just comfort and convenience. The ones who think they are independent from society are in for a rude awakening. Civilized society has become completely removed from the natural environment and lives in an illusion of comfort and security by technology. Nature was the binding force of a reality which held society and humans together. Now that binding reality has been broken, society and civilization are fractured and falling apart. The anxiety of the masses being reported are the direct result of the technology that is keeping us "safe". Technology should be viewed as a mental illness on society. It's an addiction like opium. A dependence which makes us feel good for a while but is ultimately destructive.
Maybe if science could accept the fact that free will and deterministic behavior can exist simultaneously in human behavior they'd have their answer. Human behavior is not Newtonian physics. Newtonian physics is not human behavior. Humans have the free will to make choices and the choices determine the outcome of their actions. Presently the choices we as a society are making (and have made) are very deterministic in the outcome, and they are the wrong choices.
Hi Kathleen, finally got a chance to read the article you shared, thank you. I found it interesting and worthy of pondering, but perhaps I had no choice but to feel this way, lol. No doubt genetics and conditioning determine much of our behavior, but occasionally there seem to be dramatic exceptions, for instance those who were hardened KKK disciples renouncing those beliefs. Sapolsky's ideas are certainly worth consideration, if difficult to prove or disprove. I'm all for the study of human behavior, truly that is key to our future. Can our intellect overcome our primitive animal?
Many good points here. We have a profound behavioral issue, and the problem of overpopulation spoken of when I was in grade school is never discussed. Overconsumption to avoid boredom is indeed another key problem which I chalk up to a failure of education to create intellectual curiosity, and our increasingly fragmented societies which no longer revolve around community.
Kathleen, let me summarize the main problems in a few words and their solutions: Globalization and Centralization. We need to go from that to: Localization and Decentralization.
Exactly on point! Totally agree Kathleen!! There must be limits to this "progress", because the only progress we are making is ruining the planet. That's not called progress, it's called "destruction".